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the-alchemist.livejournal.com posting in

Why did [Shakespeare's] Richard III want to be king anyway? What it to fulfil some inner need, or just because everyone like power and so he wanted what everyone else wanted?

Do we believe him when he says (in 3HVI) that it's just because he can't get a shag? Why would someone see murdering one's way to the throne as an alternative to lots of hot nookie? What's wrong with masturbation, hiring a prostitute, or making friends with Jane Shore* just like everyone else?

Sorry,

angevin2 for messing up your lovely community with my strange and obscene speculations. Anyone who suggests 'inner needs' that have nothing to do with sex will be adored and admired.

* I made Richard/Jane fanfiction once. I bet you wanted to know that. And come to think of it, why didn't he just accumulate some fangirls? But I don't want to go down the well-worn, 'look at the Lady Anne thing - actually he clearly didn't have any trouble with women at all path'... Actually I've made fanfiction that explains that one too. But that's all beside the point. 'Inner needs'. If you want to know why I want to know, I waffle about it here.

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From:

a-t-rain.livejournal.com

Well, as a dedicated Mistress Shore fan, I'm not sure she would have him. At least, Thomas Heywood's Jane wouldn't, since she's a very moral person apart from a spot of adultery, and the much-shallower Mistress Shore of the Elizabethan popular ballads would have insisted on a king who was pretty. I don't know which mental image of her Shakespeare was working with, but I'd assume it was one or the other of the above.

I think it's about the power and the challenge, more than anything. With a hefty dose of "they crowned Daddy Dearest with paper and stuck his severed head up on Micklegate Bar, and I'm going to make sure that NEVER HAPPENS TO ME." And, of course, in Henry VI-world the only reliable way to make sure it wouldn't happen to you was to do it to everybody else first.

From:

kerrypolka.livejournal.com

If I were to point to a single line/speech that exemplified Richard's supermotivation in 3 Henry VI and Richard III, it would be the following:

I cannot weep, for all my body's moisture
Scarce serves to quench my furnace-burning heart;
Nor can my tongue unload my heart's great burthen,
For selfsame wind that I should speak withal
Is kindling coals that fires all my breast
And burns me up with flames that tears would quench.
To weep is to make less the depth of grief;
Tears, then, for babes, blows and revenge for me!--
Richard, I bear thy name; I'll venge thy death,
Or die renowned by attempting it.

Once Richard Sr. (who Richard Jr. idolized) died, Richard Jr. became wholly focused on getting the York faction permanently into power. I think he sees how easily Edward gets women to fall for him, and when that (the ease in acquisition) doesn't happen for him, he writes it off as impossible.

So Richard Jr. supports Edward because they're all Yorks, and Richard is all about York York York rah rah rah! Until Edward actually takes the throne, and blows it completely (in Richard's mind) with his boozing, whoring, and marrying Woodvilles.

The transition from "rah rah York!" to "rah rah self!" is a tricky one for me to get a handle on, but I think it's because he wants to do right by Richard Sr., and he doesn't think Edward is getting the job done. So he says, "All right, I want to get it done, I have to do it myself," and starts to hack his way into power.

I think all his references to his inability to score with women spring from his comparing himself with Edward -- I love Richard-in-the-OSF-production-Jamie-Newcomb's theory that Richard is a little bit in love with Elizabeth Woodvilel -- and sort of saying "Edward may be really accomplished with women, but it makes him a terrible king; I'm not accomplished at all, but that just means I'll be a better king than he, so nyah nyah nyah *stab*."

In short, it's all about Daddy. :)

From:

the-alchemist.livejournal.com

Oh yes, I like this!

From: (Anonymous)

I apologize that I'm just some random lurker, I don't have an LJ account but I do have friends who do, and somehow came across this. I'm interested in all things Richard III so I was compelled to respond to your interesting post.

As a more recent interest, unfortunately I haven't had time to read all of that tetrology. Anyway, what I find interesting is that your quote seems to show fierce loyatly in Richard to his dad and to his Yorks. What do you make, then, of his lines: "I that have neither pity, love, nor fear...had I not reason, think ye, to make haste and seek their ruin that usurped our right?...I have no brother, I am like no brother; and this word "love," which graybeards call divine, be resident in men like one another, And not in me. I am myself alone." The first part seems to support what you are saying, re-emphasising a sort of revenge on the opposite side. But what about his talk of isolation/lovelessness? Wouldn't being loyal to his dad be out of that too? Or is he just psyching himself up for what he has to do?

I agree that all his dissing of his luck with women seems to be in contrast to his brother and the other Edward; he just seems so utterly self-serving that it is sort of hard for me to swallow that it was all out of loyalty for his dad/the Yorks. With lines like "Since this world offers no joy to me but to command, to check, to o'erbear such that are of better person than myself, I'll make my heaven to dream upon the crown..." etc. To me, it seems he feels he really got cheated in life, thus is doing whatever it takes to get the crown as some compensation. Since, as he claims, he has no love or brotherhood in him and is in his own little world of hate, it's no problem that he has to kill and cheat all those people to get there.

But you do make a good point in quoting what you did. It just seems to me that Richard was naturally a hateful, spiteful and bitter person that didn't get joy in all those other things most people did. I suppose that was all right when he was fighting for a "cause," like avenging his father's death. But once that was out of the way, and all that was left was "delightful measures" and "glorious summer" and lusting over and courting women, things that Richard seemed to loathe for whatever reason (his deformity?) - and his own strong inner resentment over his short-hand nature gave him as being sent into the world "scarce-half made up" and all that - the only thing he thought that could make him happy, noticed and respected was to become King.

Whew - well that's sort of how I can make sense of all of it.

He definetly seems to underestimate himself though, in assuming it is more likely to get 20 crowns then be an attractive suitor for women. And when he does do it, he doesn't suddenly give up his quest for the crown or anything lol. But just because he was able to lie and manipulate Lady Anne into consenting to marry him doesn't mean he's still made of the stuff for amourous dances and nimble capering in a lady's chamber. And, like you were saying, he does seem to frown on those things as not being great attributes for a King, or anybody. He was more into war. He was just a restless violent thing from birth, and this fueled by his inner resentment made him turn out to do all that stuff he did. Again, when he had a good cause to fight for, like his father and his Yorkist faction, it was all right. But once that was gone, and in its place came lighthearted fun, he got all bitter again and decided to put an end to all that, account the world "but hell" and move himself up. Another poster made a good point about the desire thing - he definetly seemed better when he had some purpose/goal to achieve. It's also interesting that he uses his deformity as a sort of defense as proof that Nature intended him to be the restless dog that he was.

Let me know what you think, if you even check here or if it's not totally rude that I'm posting here and am not even a member, lol (I would be if I had an account!)...anyway, interesting post.

- HyenaDEN5. Sorry again if it was totally rude to post in here...I just don't usually come across intelligent Richard III conversation, lol.

From:

angevin2.livejournal.com

Sorry, angevin2 for messing up your lovely community with my strange and obscene speculations.

Are you kidding? Strange and obscene speculations are what I do! You should read my serious scholarly work! ;)

Or the margins of my class notes. My LJ doesn't really convey that I frequently have imaginations as foul as Vulcan's stithy.

I'm thoroughly knackered after a long week so haven't got a whole lot to contribute at the moment, but it seems too like the whole point that once he actually gets the crown he hasn't the first idea what to do with it (other than, you know, keep on killing people, which had heretofore worked for him) ties in. In the sense that what people really desire is desire itself, so that when Richard actually achieves what he's after the game falls apart (or, to be deconstructionist about it, the entire narrative becomes untenable)...